Misha : To create this figure I actually used a language model (Dall-e) that turns a text prompt you gave it into the image. The prompt was to create a porcelain sculpture of how the American person sees the Russian person. And then based on this image I made a physical copy of a figure. This is how the sculpture came out like a person who, you don't really understand if they’re singing or screaming. Also with the hands behind them, it looks like they are tied, and they look like they’re wearing a police outfit. It was interesting because these language models are learned from publicly available information (mainly from the internet) and eventually capture all the biases including what the perception of a Russian person is. It worked perfectly. There is another prompt I made, similar but for how the Russian person sees the American person. And strangely enough, it turned out to be a figure in a praying stance that you saw earlier. I just started to play with another series recently.

Then I started multiplying those figures, making copies, and then the series became a separate project. If you look at both of those types of figures one next to another one figurine is very pious and submissive. The other is very much in control like a guard or a person that is being controlled maybe under coercion. Therefore, the project became about submission and control, the dynamic between these two; a spectrum, almost like extremities in BDSM practices. I started to decorate each of them differently. I also developed avatars for each of them and started to paint those avatars on the back. Some of these avatars were also generated [by AI]. Each one shows what type of person they are or the kind of attitude they have. Submissive, controlling, persuasive, different types of symbols representing those attitudes by character of each of those figurines. What does it remind you of? Why were you interested in this one (here) in particular?

Zan : Strange contrast… I can sense fear in it.

Misha : Fear of something?

Zan : From something, as if something's going to happen.

Misha : Is it like you look at it and you feel it, or it's like this figurine represents this certain feeling?

Zan : This one does not every single one of them are.

Misha : Do you think they are screaming or singing?

Zan : I thought they were answering.

Misha : Yeah, they're kind of in the middle of a word.

Zan : Yeah. The first thing I thought was that they're captured. Captive.

Misha : This is what I thought about them with their hands behind them. The series that I was doing with my praying figures, which is the American, the Russian, somewhat became unimportant. I started to transform them. By cutting this figure––cutting the limbs and transforming them into the pose of another figure. So that is why the praying figure starts to get into this position, standing and its arms behind its back. I was thinking a lot about this narrative of how one pose (submissive) morphs into another, one that is of control. This process of transformation became one of my interests and became a subject of interpretation and current focus of this project.

Zan : What color is the most important to you?

Misha : I would say black. It's a color and almost not a color. It's something that creates a form or it creates a shape, like when you draw. I think it's important to me because my work is not necessarily painterly. I'm not painting, I'm drawing. Even with the avatars it's more constructing things rather than expressing things. That is why I see myself as a sculptor rather than a painter. I think everything starts from the color black.

Zan : Do you think it's because it's also very practical and technical?

Misha : Yeah. There is something very technical about it. It's very minimal.

Zan : So let's go back to the way that Americans see Russians figurines; Was it easy for you to find this figure? Did it come to you really naturally or did you think about it for a long time?

Misha : I wouldn't say that it came to me. It came out of this language model, out of all this massive amount of data fed to it, but you can say by chance as well. Because every time you ask the model to generate the image based on the same prompt, it can be different. You make a prompt and then it generates an image for you. But the thing is, every time you make even the same prompt, it can generate a different image. So naturally you are curating the outcome. You are the one who is selecting which image talks to you according to this prompt. So in a way, yes, it came to me. I chose this image out of the multitude of them, maybe several iterations. But then when the right one comes, you immediately know that it's the right one because you feel it captures something about how the Russian person can be perceived.

Photo from Misha Ilyin’s Studio

Misha : And then there were other kinds of images similar to the image that came out first, it looks a bit like a kind of policeman or someone in the Army. It's also like it became captured and stopped, like, they were about to say something and then there is no sound or any words coming out. So, the image can be perceived differently and changes its meaning with different interpretations. It looks like a choir. Which is also something very communal. And there is someone who is directing this choir, and with all these boys looking figures, which adds another strange symbolic layer to the meaning. And perhaps some relevance to religion.

Zan : Is there something about Russian art that you miss?

Misha : Good question. Miss may be...Not the exact word. But there is more Russian art that I started to appreciate lately. I don't think that I'm missing the art or the Russian art practice, but I think there are art practices that I understand a bit better and appreciate more for the reason that I became a bit estranged and have some distance from it.

Misha : There is a Russian avant garde that became a bit more clear for me. There is also a kind of the art of the 19th century that I found very stale and backwards when I was living in Russia. But now I start to appreciate it more. Before, I didn't understand what was specifically Russian about it. It looks like it's impressionism. Any classic art traditions of the 19th century. But then I started to see some certain things that were very Russian. Either it looks very much like Russia or it has a Russian attitude of showing or depicting things. One of them is the Russian Jewish painter Levitan, who is considered to be one of the staples of Russian classical painting. He was capturing the essence of Russian nature, I think.

Zan : Do you think you would adopt that into your work or not?

Misha : It's very hard to adopt. It's very representational and it needs to be really skillful. There is a lot of training required to paint this way. It's really about dedicating yourself to the painting and mastering it to a certain level to express it that way. Russian art is very related to the text and narration, and they use the text, and use the text whenever it's appropriate and not appropriate. I like that it's very poetic rather than analytical. Which in a certain way distinguishes Russian tradition from the Western ones; American or British tradition which are more analytical.

Zan : What are you tired of seeing in the arts? When you go to shows or when you see people working? What are you just tired of?

Misha : What annoys me is that I see other people's work and I begin asking myself the nagging question of why? Why is it important? Or what's the reason [that this particular art] is there and why I’m supposed to see it. I think that a lot of seeing art became for me as an artist a form of professional development, and not just seeing art as how the artist’s audience sees it.

Misha : Is it the best thing? Why, why, why am I seeing that. But actually I know what can be really annoying, it is to read the statement of the show. Like a summary of the show and not understanding how it's connected to the work at all. Or the statement is so pompous and full of art jargon because it tries to make something out of work that you literally feel is not that, or probably it's much more than what it is.

Zan : It's a really good answer. You already answered this a little. But how does language affect

the visual frame?

Misha : The language is very important for me because I think on a personal level, there's a difficulty to express myself. Even with the Russian language, it always comes out as something that is not clear enough. And I think being an immigrant or moving from my country and from the language and environment where I am, (from Russia) it became even harder. Sometimes I feel like a toddler; like you develop your own language but no one really understands you. They understand that you want something or you're happy. But the sounds don't make sense to others. But you still want to talk. You want to express yourself. And for some reason you think that it's the best way to do it, to use the language. So I use a lot of words, I use a lot of language, but it's not very clear. It became even less clear when I started to express it in my art. As I mentioned in Russian culture, the language is important. And it's also a big part of the art work. In the literal or nonliteral way. Meaning it's a part of the piece itself, or it's somewhat related or there is a piece and there is a text about it.

Photo from Misha Ilyin’s Studio

Zan : Do you think that the culture with the language makes you talk in a way that's not super clear and direct. Some languages and some cultures are like that. Is that how Russian is and does that affect you still, even when you're speaking another language?

Misha : Yeah. I think in general, the Russian language is more descriptive than analytical. So it gets to the point through describing things. And that is why it's very poetic; In Russian you talk about something and through this thing you're describing you are actually trying to make a point. You must take a lot of detours to get to the point, which can be very annoying for the listener. When I listen to myself , I understand that the way I talk is not direct. It's more about the walk, taking the roads rather than getting to the destination. You're enjoying looking at the sightings while you're like la la la la la...Then like you're kind of okay, you're analyzing and you get to the point. So you see, I forgot. What was the question?

Zan : No, you answered it perfectly.

Misha : That is why I am attached to language, it's both poetic and analytical. But I personally struggle with the expression. That is why I'm trying to use all the mediums so people would understand me.

Zan : That's amazing. If there's one emotion that you could express through all these mediums, but especially through sculpture...what's that emotion? Which emotion would you use to convey to people when they look at your work or when they read your work?

Misha : If we think that there are several basic emotions...Anger. Joy. Sadness. Repulsion. Shame. And there is something else...

Zan : Guilt.

Misha : Guilt. What else?

Zan : Envy, jealousy.

Misha : Envy and jealousy are more like some form of anger for me, I guess. The shades of anger are numerous. so. Among them I would choose joy. In a strange way it comes from the instructions. With the instructions or when you give it to the language model, you still write the instruction by saying, draw me or create the image. It's an instruction itself. So there is something calming when someone directs you. It's almost tranquilizing, which is a dangerous thing. But it's also like when we meditate or when we do sports. When we do something very repetitive, it brings you to a certain state where you switch off your mind. And some form of lightness and joy comes out of it, because you're just being directed. You give the control over your body, over your thoughts. It would be the feeling that I want to convey. The kind of focus that makes you estranged, and this estrangement gives you this joy and calm. A lot of people feel calm because someone finally tells them what to do. They don't need to decide what to do.

Zan : So it's like a relief.

Misha : Relief? Yeah.

Zan : Are you emotional?

Misha : No. But I have bursts of emotions, like a burst of jealousy or a burst of joy or burst of anger or burst of love. But it's never just an eruption. It's very difficult for me to actually connect to my emotions. It feels like I can never access my emotions directly. I can only mediate them through some metaphor. Like what the art does.

Photo from Misha Ilyin’s Studio